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It must be nice to still be in the dark about those who want these silly fights to distract from what's really happening.
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Yes, we are at war.
We are at war of ideologies.
Many of us want less government and don't want the government to open our borders, let in anyone and everyone and then give them all the benefits that are given to our citizens. Nor do we want to protect illegal immigrants who commit crimes with sanctuary cities or States.
We believe that people who come into our country ILLEGALLY, are illegal, they are breaking the law. No amount of rhetoric can change that. We accept immigrants, but they must come legally, following the guidelines for legal entry. If the system is not functioning, fix it.
Many of us believe we are not entitled to free college, free medical benefits, free dependent care, free housing, free monthly stipend and the list goes on. There are things we all can work hard to obtain. This is an amazing country where jobs are plentiful and people can excel. The rags to riches story is still possible. This is not about 'participation ribbons'....work hard and get ahead. Sit on your ass and get nothing.
Many of us believe that private industry can provide a more efficient delivery mechanism than the Federal government, and we want our own choice of doctors, medical coverage, etc. Look how Veteran medical has been handled by the Federal government.
Many of us believe that education should be a local issue, not having a Federal Department of Education. Local funds should be raised and local decisions should be made.
We believe in personal responsibility, free markets, individual liberty, traditional American values and a strong national defense. But we also believe our allies must step up and do their fair share.
We do not believe in socialism, as it discourages individual incentive and initiative.
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more starfish pis!
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Jazz51....Couldn't agree more. And it isn't going to stop tell we vote out the Demarcates.
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They call themselves 'progressives' but they want to take this country down a road to oblivion. There is nothing good about that direction. People point to the Scandinavian countries for their socialistic notions. But they haven't done their research at all.
Those nations have some of the tightest borders in the world. Further, they are really very free market, capitalists.....with good hearts to help out their fellow countrymen....but on a very limited basis.
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jazz51, I hate to say this but most of what you say is simply factually incorrect.
I can prove it to you if you want, but it seems that your mind is closed. Facts matter.
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if you have the facts, then by all means, state them to make your case
everyone is entitled to their opinion, right, wrong or indifferent, that's the american way
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The war is depressing. There's nothing I can do to change it from happening. That is one reason why I escape on Hx to mingle with pretty women.
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When you decriminalize crossing the borders illegally, and institute sanctuary cities and state you are not simply wanting to increase the numbers of legal immigrants to fill the workforce.
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Although I don't see it as a war against Trump. I see it as a war where both sides listen to their biased news sources that either exaggerate or cherry pick their facts, don't think critically, don't see the points made by the other side, and therefore don't feel they should make compromises that would actually be in the country's best interest. This impeachment is the latest example. Both parties should come together and censure the President over the Ukrainian deal and warn about future attempts to get foreign governments involved in the 2020 elections. Without bipartisanship, the impeachment will be ineffective and a waste of time, except to score political points with their bases.
Trump is not the problem; he is just a symptom.
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@Facephuckker
"if you have the facts, then by all means, state them to make your case
everyone is entitled to their opinion, right, wrong or indifferent, that's the american way"
I agree wholeheartedly, brother. And I will defend jazz51's or your right or anybody's right to speak their political opinions freely, and defend it with my life, actually.
I don't seek to stifle anyone's right to free speech, but I do seek to have us base our opinions on facts. This country is under attack from within. We are being and have been being lied to in increasing amounts for over 40 years now. We have been lied to so much and for so long that some of our opinions are based completely on things that are purely made up and have no factual basis.
That's a problem. A nation divided will not stand. But how can we come together if some of us live in an alternate reality? Especially if that alternate reality has been specifically designed to pit one group against the other? One side is fact-based and the other side is convinced they're right. Hopelessly convinced. And yet, we are all Americans. We have more in common than we do not.
And I have been providing facts. Facts upon facts upon facts in blog after blog. That takes time and effort. I've done it happily without regard for effect as a public service of sorts. And for some whose minds are made up, so convinced they're right in their opinions even though the provable facts show them their opinion is based on falsehoods, providing those facts again is pointless.
Facts matter and we should take care to know what is factual and what isn't. The continued success and security of our country depends on that now more than ever.
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@Night-Rider
"Although I don't see it as a war against Trump. I see it as a war where both sides listen to their biased news sources that either exaggerate or cherry pick their facts, don't think critically, don't see the points made by the other side, and therefore don't feel they should make compromises that would actually be in the country's best interest."
I don't see it as a war against Trump either. I see it as a war against truth.
Like it or not, it is a provable fact that one side of the political spectrum is largely fact-based and the other side is not. That is a problem, and it wasn't created by accident. Our two alternate realities happened because of a decades long misinformation and psychological warfare campaign perpetrated on us, you and me from within our own borders.
It's gotten so bad that it is a provable fact that many Republican talking points are identical to Russian talking points and both are based on bullshit. But this attack on our country isn't led by or even instigated by Russia. They've only taken advantage of it.
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Both sides cherry-pick their facts. Neither is trustworthy with an objective truth.
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J502.... let’s here those facts. We have jobs but those coming in are not qualified.
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Decriminalizing border crossing and release into the US for “asylum” seekers equals open borders
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J,
Where you are obviously a bright fellow, you are stating multiple things as incontrovertible facts when they are not.
“In our earlier blog you wrote:
The undisputed facts show President Trump led an effort to withhold Congressionally mandated and approved (by both the House and the Senate) federal tax dollars ($391 million in military aid) from Ukraine (who happens to be in a deadly shooting war with Russia as we speak) as well as a highly-coveted and important White House meeting with Ukrainian President Zelensky (which is desperately needed by Ukraine in their current negotiations with Russia) until they publicly announced investigations into debunked claims about the Bidens and the Democratic Party.
That's illegal and, more importantly, the very definition of impeachable abuses of power.”
The strength of your presentation makes people hesitant to challenge your “facts.” But the fact is it is not illegal for the president to hold back/delay aid to foreign countries that was previously approved by both House and Senate. President Obama did it multiple times, one notable occasion was with Pakistan in 2011.
Could it be illegal? Absolutely, depending on the circumstances. If it is proven it was for personal gain... that is one reason it could be considered illegal. But the president has the authority to withhold it indefinitely without reason. Fact.
I’m not saying he/she should or that it’s always appropriate. But inappropriate and illegal are two very different standards. The left’s argument has never been holding back the aid was illegal but that his motivation made the decision illegal.
That is yet to be proven... and will not be because it can’t be unless there is some smoking gun document or direct conversation that states it was.
Your “facts” in this instance are innuendo and preference. Now you can choose to believe some of the testimony to prove it as otherwise... but you have to take a leap to get there.
But you stated those things as some of your “facts.” Which just aren’t true.
You begin with your bias because you are trying to prove your point rather than see where actual facts take you. You give weight to those that support your position and discount/omit those that don’t.
I have no need to defend the President or the Republicans. I didn’t vote for him.
More than likely... I will next year unless the left brings in someone that tickles my fancy... but they ain’t showed up yet.
I haven’t given my heart to a party or a candidate. They get my vote... that’s it. Because of that I don’t have to find a way to convince myself one side of liars is better than the other.
But bullshit is bullshit no matter if it’s red or blue. A lot of it is purple.
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I am a card-carrying progressive, but I certainly don’t espouse the beliefs that Jazz51 claims me and my ilk do.
I do not believe in open borders but I do believe that we are a nation of immigrants and that has made us strong. And if somebody is seeking asylum from bad circumstances, their plight should be humanely and thoughtfully considered.
I do believe the government sometimes over reaches, but regulations to protect and maintain our environment, food, water, air, medicine, critical infrastructure, public wellbeing and the most vulnerable among us are essential, because corporations will not.
I don’t think everything should be “free,” but if my tax dollars are being used to fund the military to protect oil fields in the Middle East, they can also be used to pay for healthcare for my fellow Americans. To look at it another way, if you are okay with tax dollars protecting personal property with fire and police, then it seems like protecting people’s health should be accessible too.
I don’t think government should be so small that it fits in a woman’s vagina. Decisions about reproduction should not be dictated by any government official.
If you murder somebody, you should forfeit your life.
I believe education is a local issue, but it has national implications and must be recognized and managed accordingly. Local funds do comprise most spending on education and it has proven to concentrate the most money in the wealthiest neighborhoods, creating tremendous inequities in educational outcomes (which is bad for the country).
I believe in personal responsibility, but also accountability and civility.
I believe free markets are an illusion. Whether you’re talking about farm subsidies or military spending to protect oil fields, if you paid the true cost of most of the products and commodities you use, you would be astonished.
I believe in individual liberty, but please see above about accountability.
Since we are a nation of immigrants, traditional American values may mean different things to different people. Respect those differences.
I believe in strong national defense, but we have a military industrial complex with way too much influence.
That’s what this progressive believes. And there are plenty more like me.
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Sensible Democrats have thought about censure instead of impeachment, because they know impeachment will lead to acquittal while a censure could gain some bipartisan support.
Unfortunately, a censure would not attract enough support from partisan Democrats who rather win political points that establish a true check on Presidential power.
You see, the left is just as rabidly ideological at the right. Seeing it as one side is more correct while one side is more incorrect is a facade.
A censure from both the House and Senate would have teeth in it, unlike a partisan impeachment, because it would effectively admonish the President not to continue to attempt to get foreign governments to interfere in the 2020 elections. If the President ignored this warning, he would have dissed a Congress that might have enough votes to impeach him and remove him from office (because a censure would be a bipartisan effort). Hence, the censure would enable a true check on Presidential power.
But no. Both sides -- equally Democrats and Republicans-- would rather score political victories than work very hard to establish a coalition that would enable Congress to effectively deal with perceived Presidential abuse of power.
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Harpooner ... thanks for laying that out! That is clear.
So what would be your answer to our border problem. What should be the standards for asylum seekers.
I don’t know anyone that wants the borders closed. But I know a lot of people who want them controlled.
I don’t know anyone who believes asylum should never be granted... but want clear mechanisms to make sure it isn’t abused.
The problem is we villainize the other side and say they want things they don’t want.
So how should it work?
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Hey Kaiser!
"The strength of your presentation makes people hesitant to challenge your “facts.” But the fact is it is not illegal for the president to hold back/delay aid to foreign countries that was previously approved by both House and Senate. President Obama did it multiple times, one notable occasion was with Pakistan in 2011."
That is correct. However, you're leaving out one important element (which you mentioned later). Trump did those things for his personal/political gain, and that IS illegal. It's called extortion. I don't know why anyone would think Trump didn't do those things for his political/personal benefit. It's plain as day. He benefits from the talking point that Biden and the Democratic Party is under investigation. That's 1+1=2 stuff. It's self-evident.
"But you stated those things as some of your “facts.” Which just aren’t true.
You begin with your bias because you are trying to prove your point rather than see where actual facts take you. You give weight to those that support your position and discount/omit those that don’t."
So given that Trump obviously benefits (after all the only announcement of investigations he wanted were ones that would help his re-election bid), what I said in the previous blog was factual, Will you amend your above statement or do you have your own bias to consider?
One thing you're right about is that I have a bias. I'm biased towards the truth, towards fact. If a Democrat did the things Trump is doing or told the lies Trump is telling, I'd feel the same way and stand up to it just like I'm doing now. If the Democratic Party were parroting Russian talking points the way the Republican Party is now, I'd react the exact same way.
I care about our country coming together. I care about us discussing our policies and issues in a fact-based, respectful debate. That's my bias. What's yours?
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J... that is yet to be proven. It’s not a fact because you believe it to be true.
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@Night-Rider
"Both sides cherry-pick their facts. Neither is trustworthy with an objective truth."
Completely agree. All political parties and politicians are in the business of persuasion and thus can't be trusted to tell you the exact truth at all times. Both fudge numbers when necessary and try to hide the unflattering things about a bill they're trying to get passed.
But only one party has gone so far down the rabbit hole that they are currently parroting Russian talking points and Russian conspiracy theories. Only one party has created an alternate non-fact based reality for the purposes of manipulating their base voters. Only one party uses "gaslighting" as a core part of their communications strategy.
Neither party is perfectly truthful all the time. But to compare the two as equals in deception is factually unfounded. By and large, one party bases their policies, legislation and debate on facts and the other one doesn't.
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Kaiser wrote:
"J... that is yet to be proven. It’s not a fact because you believe it to be true."
What more do you need to know? Did you watch/read/follow the testimony given before Congress?
Ask yourself these questions. Has President Trump ever asked any other country to clean up general corruption in their country before allowing aid to go through to that country? When President Trump wanted Ukraine to do investigations, were they into well founded cases of corruption in Ukraine? Did President Trump want to see solid results of corruption getting cleaned up before releasing the aid to Ukraine or giving President Zelensky a White House visit?
The answer to all those questions is no. Now ask yourself these questions.
Have the issues surrounding the desired investigations into the Bidens and the Democratic Party's server supposedly being hidden in Ukraine been thoroughly and repeatedly debunked? Did Trump specifically ask for those debunked issues to be investigated? Did the testimony of witnesses corroborate that Trump would release the aid if Ukraine would simply just publicly announce these investigations and not necessarily complete them? Would Trump's re-election campaign benefit from having a talking point that not only draws in question Biden's integrity but also casts doubt over whether Russia interfered with the 2016 election and instead it might be a Democratic Party hoax?
The answer to all those questions is yes. Once you know all the facts (or even just a few in this case), it is patently clear that he did these actions to benefit his campaign and that he couldn't care less about fighting corruption in Ukraine.
So again I ask, what more do you need to know?
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Let me ask this question to anyone who would like to answer:
What did Joe Biden do in regards to Ukraine that would be worthy of investigation? Anyone?
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This blog on both sides of the issue is very well stated and argued. Learned something from points made by both sides. Civil and not just name calling.
Analysis at a pretty high level.
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"By and large, one party bases their policies, legislation and debate on facts and the other one doesn't."
If you're basing your policies, legislation, and debate on cherry-picked facts that are convenient to your ideology, it's arguably worse than making stuff up because you create the illusion that you are telling the truth, and so it's harder to simply dismiss than someone who simply makes stuff up.
Many people who support Trump in general know that he gets the facts wrong on many issues. They are not always idiots and blind followers, like you may think.
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People like Trump for a variety of reasons, not because they believe his bullshit. I like Trump because he is nice to Israel, nice to Jews ,(sort of), better on taxes, and also intuitively not politically correct. And many of us are fed up with too much political correctness.
He also has the balls to not completely capitulate on illegal immigration. Democatic party policy has moved far on that issue. I was comfortable with Obama in 2008, but Democrats have become extreme.
He's pro development. And the country hasn't been building enough infrastructure.
And somehow, he seems more of a "common man" than either Bushs, or Obama, or perhaps Clinton. There's something relatable about him that most politicians lack.
And his lack of religion is reassuring.
I know he bullshits a lot, but I am smart enough to see through it, and you know what, the average American is too for the most part.
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People know that Trump lies, but they simply don't care as much as others because they value highly the qualities they like about Trump, not because they believe in his bullshit.
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@jazz51 you talk about being so very concerned about "open borders".
Is that sort of we have will Canada. Its pretty damn easy for them to come here.
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"People know that Trump lies, but they simply don't care as much as others because they value highly the qualities they like about Trump, not because they believe in his bullshit."
The problem is exactly all of his bullshit. You know he lies, so how can you expect to decipher what is truth from his deception? He lies constantly, it has been fact checked- even people like night-rider, who supports him, knows he's full of shit. He is the head of the mis-information train that J seems to be speaking about, and that is exactly why more than half of America (and apparently the world), dislike and mistrust him.
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"People know that Trump lies, but they simply don't care as much as others because they value highly the qualities they like about Trump, not because they believe in his bullshit."
Not TRUE.
It not so much about Trump's qualities. The reason certain people bend over backwards to defend Trump's crazy bullshit is because those certain people harbor some of that exact same bigotry that Trump does. They see him as sort of a kindred soul. He actually spouts out load some of the same bigoted thoughts they too think and believe. Thats why no matter what he does fucked up or not they will still follow him. All the way into the ground!
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^Maybe instead of guessing for us, you should let us tell you why we like Trump. I told you why already.
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I think Nikki got it right.
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I am a LEGAL immigrant from Europe and I agree 1000% with Jazzy. The left has gone crazy.. not only here but even in europe. THe democratic party is pointing dangerously to pure socialism and that is nuts.. Trump is a son of bitch but the alternative is worse..much worse.
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That is a fox news and flat out Republican lie to say democrats are pushing for pure socialism. Just like they try to paint all dems as wanting completely open borders and wanting to strip away all guns. It's used to create division, just as the OP is claiming, and you're buying into it.
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well mr Sanders and mrs Warren (and pretty much all the others candidates) are pointing to that direction. Socialize European system (huge Welfare system).. and me being from Europe I am really scared.
one of the reason why I am here to begin with.. no socialism.
Have you ever notice that American Business..American Companies.. American Universities.. American Hospitals..American Cities are FULL of Europeans?? Why is that? I know the reason being one of them.
The Democratic party is going in that DIRECTION...not good.
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yes you are right.. but apparently it's not enough....the democrats want more more more more more.. more of Your earnings..
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Lowering Corporate taxes always bring jobs and prosperity..
please ask Ireland about this.
That's why we have a very low unemployment right now in this country.
That's the reason why western europe is in big trouble. The "cost of work" is too high.
The solutions would be to cut taxes...everybody knows it but they cannot do it. The reason. Giant welfare states.
The democrats want to import that system here in the US. Big mistake.
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Russian information warfare.
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