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I have spent time on Nimitz class carriers, including the Roosevelt.
Civilians rarely understand the need to respect and adhere to the chain of command. It is only that confidence that allows sailors and soldiers to serve under horrible conditions when at war.
If a Captain can not manage that during peacetime... he surely can’t handle the crisis of war. He may have been absolutely correct in his assessment of the facts... but leadership isn’t just about understanding the facts. It’s about devising and implementing solutions in a way that supports the overall mission of the Navy while considering the safety of men as well.
To violate the chain of command on an issue like this was a bad call... not to mention there was bad judgement in who he sent the letter to.
If the letter isn’t leaked... it is simply an internal issue. The leaker cost him his job.
Although his naval career will not end as he had hoped... he will be fine. Enlisted men who complete the Nuke program and work on the ship’s propulsion plant get great jobs after leaving the military.
The guy responsible for an aircraft carrier with two nuclear reactors.... that guy has his pick of careers. and he is just 50.
It might be the best thing to ever happen to him.
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Agree with above. In the military, the chain of command is everything.
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We do not know all the facts and we will probably never know. How do you know that the Captain disregarded the chain of command? You are only given the information the military wants you to see. Here are the known facts. Crew members tested positive for coronavirus. Captain most certainly requested help. Now the rest is up for speculation. Whether or not the Captain broke the chain of command. He acted ethically and morally. That's the type of quality we need in this country.
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It’s not speculation.
He sent a 4 page letter arguing his position outside of his chain of command and it was leaked.
It just can’t work like that in the military.
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Sent to 15 - 20 people or something like that
I think I got it in my Spam folder
He panicked, I guess
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I was never in the military and we dont have all the info but I can say that we do expect our military to hold to protocol of all kinds under stressful situations like this and at war.
Those guys in the Navy are out there steering expensive boats loaded with state of the art technology, serious weapons grade materials, and all kinds of aircraft and assault vessels.
I would think there will be a hearing and maybe testimony will move towards modifying protocol in non war time scenarios in the future.
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While I have little understanding of the military chain of command (although I highly respect it) I think this was a tough situation to be in. The clock was ticking and more sailors were getting sick and placing the ship in danger. worse yet, the carrier would not be at combat operational if the pandemic was not addressed quickly. He chose welfare of the ship and crew over chain of command beurocracy.
Worse yet, the Navy secretary who spoke to the sailors still on board insulted their captain when addressing the change of command after Cpt. Crozier left. This was not incompetence, this was a leader who put people first.
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The perfect weapon to knock out an Aircraft Carrier is a virus. I'm sure the Chinese are taking notes...
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Who needs a nuke in the age of bio-weapons?
A well trained sea bird with a carrier package, a little time and poof! Incapacitated sea ship that has to turn away, without firing a single shot.
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I have also spent time on carriers, years in fact. We don't have all the details and probably never will. He might have used the CoC and got no response because of red tape. He might have panicked and overreacted.
Due to close quarters on a ship a contagious virus is a threat. Common knowledge to those that have been on one. I'm sure the Chinese already know that, since they have ships. Just look at cruise ships, and people are on those a shorter length of time, under better conditions.
The nuclear reference is to the fact that a modern carrier is nuclear powered. Hard to qualify and hard to be successful. He'll be fine as far as a job. Besides, he's still in. Won't make admiral, but he'll be able to retire as am O6 with full benefits. As a carrier captain he probably would have made admiral, but that's gone.
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I heard the Navy offered him the Minnow.
Anything further on that?
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Oh look, someone dropped a joke. It still there on the floor. Someone get a mop, please? And no, we don’t have TP.
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Here's another
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trump likes smart people and after reviewing his file, is going to take a look at the case more closely...maybe chalking it up to a bad day?
the captain was in the wrong and he knew what he was doing...not a stupid guy. that comment from the secretary was basically saying that - he knew what he was doing when he sent out the many letters. i think they need to follow up and see who leaked it and fire or prosecute them also
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Chain of command failed so he took action. Leader’s are visionaries that look beyond time and space and structure. He saved lives. I consider this virus is an enemy and This is a war that infiltrated his crew without firing a damn shot. The military isn’t trained for this type of engagement, no pNdemic plan/COA. Fuck concepts and rules.Take action. That’s leadership.
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Sherkahn, this is one of the best blogs I've read on this site. Everyone's comments are insightful and provide various perspectives. My view of this situation is that a strict adherence to the normal military orthodoxy was more dangerous than the need to adapt to the situation. In this particular instance, adaptation required a leap beyond the chain of command, if it turns out that the Captain is indeed guilty of violating it. But I also believe that this situation will hasten a shift in the architecture of the US Arsenal. The Aircraft Carrier as a weapons platform and force projector will be rendered obsolete not only by new technologies, but how unanticipated threats can easily neutralize heavily armed and heavily manned vessels. The requirements of maintaining a ship like that at sea will become too much if it can't withstand biological hazards. And so, the Captain's actions might usher in a course correction that the Navy needs sooner rather than later.
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I have a question for those who have served in the military, especially those who may have served in supervisory roles.
What is expected of you if, in your reasoned and justifiable opinion, your immediate CO (and perhaps his/her CO) has failed to fulfill their responsibilities and is unnecessarily endangering you and your personnel?
In other words, when does respecting Chain of Command cross the line into the Nuremberg defense?
I'm guessing that military regulations and the Code of Conduct must address this on some level.
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There are leaders and followers. There are those Those who are inclined to seek and follow direction. Good leaders know how to follow to an necessarily degree. Great leaders OR thOse who are leaders, see in and beyond Rules and have the ability to make huge decisions On their own!
Military is one context where leaders are develop, exercised/tested. But it’s not the only place where leadership exists nor is it the genesis. At most, today, it’s a crucible.
Plenty examples where COC fails. It’s a joke today in American government at all levels. Today it’s not about the accomplishing the right thing. With so many diverse and conflicting dispositions, the powerful-elected and appointed-fight for their version of right. And some segment of the population loses-there’s only so much money to go around. Can you dig it.
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Oh and I was wrong, the fed has a bio response plan/strategy. Perhaps due to a lack of leadership, it has entirely failed in this situation...want to learn more? Look up CBRNE.
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@Jericho
I definitely agree with your points on a conceptual and ethical level.
What I am wondering is, on a practical and legal level, is were Crozier's actions actually against US armed forces regulations?
For the sake of discussion, let's assume that he did not personally or intentionally leak the memo since it hasn't yet been determined one way or another
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I’m guessing Cpt. Crosier must have weighed the potential of the leak in his decision making.
Again, I was not there, have no true idea of the conditions and cannot speak to what was on his mind.
But from the genuine leaders in the service I have had the privilege to meet and talk to, it’s the ability to be able to complete missions that is first priority. And if those under your command can’t breathe and are contagious, then you need to do what you need to to make sure the ship can complete it’s missions.
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Sounds as if he put the needs of his soldiers before his own career. Seems like we should reward people like that, not punish them.
History hasn't looked kindly on people who claim "I was just following orders."
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@phlampson, great and technical question. I don’t know military law.
It’s sad when a commander of a ship is t given support for making what seems to be the best decision-get the crew off and isolated and keep the carrier combat ready. We’re never at peacetime, always vigilant ... yet he was toasted slightly whereas the acting Secretary of the Navy was just BBQ’d
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Acting Sec Nav resigns over bungled handling of Capt Crozier
RW
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Agree with his resigning. What he said was demeaning to Crozier.
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Yeah, the SEC NAV over reacted in a public manner....what he does in private is another matter and he probably would have been justified in chewing out Crozier and even demoting him. Taking it out on him in public is not how its done in the military. And as a former Navy Officer, he should have been better in his leadership.....caling another Officer Stupid and Niave not only to his men but having it aired pubicly was a rookie move.
Former Ltjg USN, 1st Mar Div FMF
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Just now:
"I lost situational awareness"
After he resigned on Tuesday, Modly again apologized for his comments about Crozier and his familiar tone, telling the Navy in a memo that -- upon getting on the ship -- "I lost situational awareness."
"When I walked on the quarterdeck of the TR I lost situational awareness and decided to speak with them as if I was their commander, or their shipmate, rather than their Secretary," Modly wrote. "They deserved better, and I hope that over the passage of time that they will understand the words themselves rather than the manner in which they were delivered. But what's done is done. I can't take it back, and frankly I don't know if I walked back up that quarterdeck today if I wouldn't have the same level of emotions that drove my delivery yesterday."
Modly said he now recognized that the "crew deserved a lot more empathy and a lot less lecturing" during his remarks. He said that he regretted how quickly his words spread through the press and insisted that his true meaning was lost.
Fell on his sword.............Oorah!
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Down with Trump!
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The fact that he was a Captain of a Nuclear Aircraft Carrier proves that he was not, and is not dumb. I think ultimately this should have been handled with a formal investigation. Whoever leaked this information should be disciplined. Leaking the mission capability of an Aircraft Carrier Battle Group is unacceptable. Every chain of command structure allows for leap frogging in the case of a dire emergency. It becomes incumbent on the person bypassing someone else to prove that it was indeed necessary, and there is usually hell to pay if they did not have a sufficient reason. So the question becomes did the leak come from someone further up the chain? In that case he has no fault here. However, if he sent this letter to someone outside of his Chain, the question has to be why and for what purpose? Again, he is not dumb. How likely was it that the letter would leak, and other than leaking a letter, what value was there in sending it to whoever leaked it.
In the end these are all questions that need to be answered, but unfortunately by the time they are answered everyone will have moved on to the next shiny object shouting either “Hail Trump” or “Orange Man Bad”.
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that is what the secretary was getting at....you are not those things because you are in command of an aircraft carrier - you did this on purpose, knowing your fate...maybe not knowing it would get to a newspaper like that, but should have known....there needs to be an investigation of the leak
should be pretty easy...they will know everyone it went to...everyone will be in a file that will never be promoted unless the culprits come clean on the leak...maybe prosecute if there was any classified info on there...from the military or non military
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The Secretary’s resignation was appropriate. To call a Captain, commanding the most powerful war vessel in the United States arsenal , “naive” and/or “stupid” cannot be acceptable. If true, It speaks more to the competence of those who assigned him to that billet. If it is not true, then the Secretary over reacted and like Cozier, damaged the confidence in the leadership structure. A CV-N (Carrier Vessel - Nuclear), single handily has the ability to wipe out entire nations. You don’t get that job after a coupe of night school classes and a few Tony Robbins seminars.
There are always options that do not violate the the command structure. Anyone who has ever served knows the straight-line, chain of command can often be flawed... that is why they have divergent reporting tracks available.
On a carrier there are often multiple Captains. Usually the Commander of the Air-wing assigned to the ship is a captain that has a parallel chain of command. Often the religious officer (Chaplain) on an Aircraft carrier is a captain (although not a line officer) also with a parallel chain of command. Not to mention, most battle groups has at least a Rear Admiral commanding the group.
It would be a mistake to think the captain was the only one who cared about the men on board the ship and in the entire BG. The battle group had at least 6-10 other captains who all have connected and parallel chains of command.
The AC captain, somehow, could not convince any of those other responsible men that the Department of the Navy was not working fast enough to resolve the issue. Not to mention... there are limited options when you are in the middle of the Pacific Ocean and are trying to get 60 men off the ship.
I think Crozier is a good man who made a mistake. Because it went public, it cost him his command.
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his resignation was a no brainer, but what was in his brain when he said it was correct...he used the wrong words and he has to fall on his sword himself
trump also thinks the captain had a bad day...you guys must be buds?
let's see the follow-up investigation and the ultimate leaker to the press
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One of the infected sailors on the ship has died in Guam.
If the crew were not upset about how this was handled they will be pissed now.
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Glad you can find something to be joyful about in this dark moment.
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Crozier is a class act!!! He is NOT STUPID and certainly knew about chains of command. He also knows about incompetence. He first went up the chain of command but the idiots did NOTHING!! HE PUT THE SAFETY AND WELL BEING OF HIS CREW AHEAD OF HIS OWN SITUATION!!! The idiots up the chain WOULD RESPECT THAT if they had a nanogram of common sense in the mush that's stuffed between their ears!!
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I've never been part of the military and I have a question on the proper chain of command.
But let's say that the military didn't act about the infections on the ship because they didn't want to raise alarms that the virus had the potential of running rampant on one of our vessels. And let's say that it was done simply to protect Trump and shield him from the potential bad press highlighting his continued incompetence (that he should have acted sooner to stem the growth of the virus in America…and to take steps to protect our servicemen). If those are the reasons the military disregarded the warnings of the infections on the ship, is the captain then justified to circumvent the chain of command?
Today's death of a sailor, and the 600+ currently infected on the ship, only supports the captain's actions in my mind.
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Don't mean to hijack , but this caught my eye.
"Civilians rarely understand the need to respect and adhere to the chain of command.
Trump doesn't understand the need to respect and adhere to the constitution!
For the same reason as above.
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You mean the Stable Genius? I think Modly was thinking of trump when he said the Captain was stupid!
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You can’t take the process out of the context of the military. As much as people desire to apply it to American “civilian” principles... you can’t.
Is it perfect? Absolutely not. Are there ever abuses, mistakes and bad decisions? Absolutely.
But following the COC... and orders during peacetime is what creates the ability to do it in the fears and pressures of war. That’s why soldiers and sailors drill Thaler asses off during peace time... so processes become second nature... habitual.
Again, the only real fuckup was someone the CaptaIn trusted, leaked the letter. Without the public outcry and uninformed judgement... this thing would have been handled with a conversation.
The letter didn’t change the operational response.
It’s sad because Crozier seems like a good guy... and was probably a good “old man.” But somebody forced it into the public realm where it had to be dealt with differently.
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I do have a serious question for anybody on here: What defenses/shielding/procedures are in place to protect US military personnel and weapons systems from Biological Attack?
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Can’t say I know the answer to that.
I do know every branch of the service has a shitload of duct tape and plastic sheets.
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Hmmm, duct tape and plastic sheets is a bit disconcerting, if that's all they have to fall back on.
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Hero? You must have a weak and watered down version.
He should not have been fired. But going outside chain of command and violating protocols hardly makes someone a hero.
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yes, chain of command is everything in the military
when I was in the Army, we would celebrate when ever the VC shot down an aircraft with a general on it
the only thing a military is good for is perpetuating a military state
fuck the military and most importantly, fuck all officers
and fuck all politicians
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"Hero? You must have a weak and watered down version."
Sacrificing yourself (Career) to save the lives of the Sailors in your command is exactly the definition of a Hero.
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Ask yourself what would or should happen to anyone under this Captain had they done it and he did not. There's your answer.
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don't know why people keep saying he was fired, he was relieved of his command, and still in the military, so he was not fired
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