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Maybe it was a lab leak. Maybe it came from nature. We just don’t know.
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We likely will not ever know for sure
However, the lab leak is the most likely origin point.
A few pithy comments so that you finally realize
When someone says the science is settled
You'll know they've run out of logical arguments
Here u go......
"A few months before Covid-19 became a pandemic, Filippa Lentzos started reading about unusual flu cases in Wuhan, China. Ms. Lentzos, a social scientist who studies biological threats, belongs to an email group she describes as consisting of “ex-intelligence, bioweapons specialists, experts, former State Department diplomats” and others “who have worked in arms control, biological disarmament.”
"As Chinese authorities struggled to contain the outbreak, she recalls, the expert circle asked questions about the pathogen’s origin: “Is this security related? Is it military? Is there something dodgy going on? What information are we not getting here?” They asked these questions “not because we are conspiracy theorists. This is our profession,” Ms. Lentzos, 44, says in a video interview from her home in Switzerland. As the coronavirus and alarm about it spread, nonexperts started asking similar questions—only to be mocked or silenced by journalists, social-media companies and prominent scientists."
Ms. Lentzos, who places her own politics on the Swiss “center left,” thought that conclusion premature and said so publicly. In May 2020, she published an article in the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists weighing whether “safety lapses in the course of basic scientific research” caused the pandemic. While acknowledging there was, “as of yet, little concrete evidence,” she noted “several indications that collectively suggest this is a serious possibility that needs following up by the international community.”
She was suggesting an accident, not a deliberate release: “If you’re culturing a virus that is readily able to infect humans, particularly via the respiratory tract, then any droplet caused by a simple splash or aerosolization of liquid can be inhaled without you realizing it,” she wrote. “Could an unknowingly infected researcher showing no symptoms unwittingly have infected family, friends, and anyone else he or she was in contact with? Or was there perhaps an unnoticed leak of a coronavirus from the lab, from improperly incinerated waste material or animal carcasses that found their way to rubbish bins that rats or cats could have accessed?”
The most significant problem came from the scientific community. “Some of the scientists in this area very quickly closed ranks,” she says, and partisanship wasn’t their only motive: “Like most things in life, there are power plays. There are agendas that are part of the scientific community. Just like any other community, there are strong vested interests. There were people that did not talk about this, because they feared for their careers. They feared for their grants.”
Ms. Lentzos counsels against idealizing scientists and in favor of “seeing science and scientific activity, and how the community works, not as this inner sacred sanctum that’s devoid of any conflicts of interests, or agendas, or any of that stuff, but seeing it as also a social activity, where there are good players and bad players.”
Take Peter Daszak, the zoologist who organized the Lancet letter condemning lab-leak “conspiracy theories.” He had directed millions of dollars to the Wuhan Institute of Virology through his nonprofit, EcoHealth Alliance. A lab mistake that killed millions would be bad for his reputation. Other researchers have taken part in gain-of-function research, which can make viruses deadlier or easier to transmit. Who would permit, much less fund, such research if it proved so catastrophic? Yet researchers like Marion Koopmans, who oversees an institution that has conducted gain-of-function research, had an outsize voice in media. Both she and Mr. Daszak served on the World Health Organization’s origin investigation team.
A scientific consensus isn’t always true, and peer review can look like peer pressure. “How do we know what we know? Well, the way we know in science is you provide references to everything, all the claims that you make, and you can trace it back,” Ms. Lentzos says. The lab-leak theory began to be treated “like an attack on science, the sciences. And so the scientists were like, ‘Well, I trust other scientists,’ without actually doing the groundwork.” Few nonscientists, including journalists and social-media executives, even have the capacity to do the groundwork. “For many,” she says, “it was a shortcut. ‘Yeah, scientists are saying this and we also believe in those scientists.’ ”
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Occam's razor. It was a leak.
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Isn't that what I said?
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Too little information to be able to invoke Occam's Razor.
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The WSJ opinion article is actually more interesting when read in full. Unfortunately, it's behind a paywall.
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please stop with the nature shit
the only thing in question is was this accidental or on purpose
there is that one overriding detail you seem to forget that hangs over this thing, when you tend to want to give the benefit of doubt...please share with us what that is BTW...that one big thing?
does china deserve that consideration? not like they didn't have motive...WHAT could the motive be?
Ex-CDC boss believes Covid-19 virus came from China lab
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Flat earth theory
God created the earth in 7 days
Newtonian physics are the fundamental laws of motion and gravity.
Yes, Occam's razor always gives you the right answer.
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"please stop with the nature shit"
Disprove it first.
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Yes, so not much point to linking it.
I tried to pull out the salient parts and paste without blowing up the internet
Or overshare.
The point being that the point of science is that it's never really settled.
Science is about asking the next question.....and the next one....and the next one.....ad infinitum
If someone stops asking, then they're not really a scientist
Unless you're a spreadsheet guy
Then you can be as fucked up as you want
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nr, you seen anything new on the natural origin theory?
Don't hear much about anybody trying to track that down
If they are, then they're not publishing about it
For sure, they're gonna miss 100% of what they don't look for
You
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the defense of every single thing is dumbfounding
answer the one question...what was the one big thing that happened, that should take your absolute BOD away and entertain the questions of everything covid when it comes to china
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"the defense of every single thing is dumbfounding"
Just because I"m saying we don't know if the virus came from the lab? Obviously your statement is silly and not accurate at all.
"nr, you seen anything new on the natural origin theory?"
1. It's not unusual we haven't yet found natural hosts and reservoirs for SARS-CoV-2 before the pandemic. This type of work can take decades to uncover.
2. We only know a tiny fraction of the viruses circulating in the wild, and thus it's premature to say that it's unlikely SARS-CoV-2 originated in nature.
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Where is patient zero?
Where are the scientists that worked on it in the lab?
Why did China prevent any investigation and cooperation with the International community?
Does it not seem a bit Occam's that there is a L4 Virology lab in the same city where the outbreak originated?
Why after 10s of thousands of tests have they not found one instance of the virus in the wild, nor in the bat soup?
Why does the virus gene sequence look more man made than what occurs in nature?
Why did Fauci say it was a natural occurrence and then his emails showed he funded GOF research?
Why did Big Tech shut down any lab origin discussion / speech yet now allows it?
Why NR, WHY??
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disprove it....too funny
if this was a murder case in court....what would have happened?
WE are still missing the BIG event that should take away any BOD you are giving china...what is it NR? how do you explain it or justify the BOD you are giving china?
I'm good with anything BTW...hoping it was an accident...hate to think WE are at war
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^ I think that time's past - We are at war, just haven't shot any bullets or lobbed any missiles ... yet.
The ccp has always had the attitude that as long as they 'win' they don't care how many casualties there would be. Because of that I can see them releasing it on purpose.
Hope I'm wrong and it was because it somehow got out, but I could see them purposely releasing it.
Atticus Finch
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The evidence is getting pretty strong in favor of this coming from a lab.
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The real cynic in me says China purposely let it out in order to derail Trump
Who'd been a real pain in the ass to them
Getting grandpa in the deal was frosting on the cake
My personal belief is accident, not on purpose.
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Ditto
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"1. It's not unusual we haven't yet found natural hosts and reservoirs for SARS-CoV-2 before the pandemic. This type of work can take decades to uncover.
2. We only know a tiny fraction of the viruses circulating in the wild, and thus it's premature to say that it's unlikely SARS-CoV-2 originated in nature."
NR, Since it appears that you follow the literature, I just thought you might heard mention that someone is, at least, looking for more evidence of the bat>pangolin>human vector.
Seriously though, bat to pangolin to human starting with bats 1,000 miles away from Wuhan compared to someone who gets SARS COV2 just steps from a biolab where they work specifically on coronavirus gain of function? Gtfoh
Naaah, couldnt be the Lab.....no way
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To me the mere fact the CCP allowed international travel after restricting travel to/from Wuhan shows gross negligence at the least bordering on willful intent create a worldwide Pandemic.
Where did it originate?... who cares... the virus was willfully released to the world stage.
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I actually think the pangolin hypothesis has been disproved.
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“ Seriously though, bat to pangolin to human starting with bats 1,000 miles away from Wuhan compared to someone who gets SARS COV2 just steps from a biolab where they work specifically on coronavirus gain of function? Gtfoh ”
I don’t why it’s so difficult to imagine a zoonotic origin when dozens of animal species were being brought to Wuhan all the time for years.
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Always remember the CCP has your best interest at heart.
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It's not difficult to imagine
It just seems far less likely than an accidental lab leak
Especially when the actual bats involved are 1,000 miles away and aren't brought to the Wuhan market, as far as I'm aware.
This is where Occam enters stage right and steals the show
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Actually, Occam's razor would suggest the zootonic route, because it's the route that has led to most outbreaks in the past. And probabilistically, with a million or so chances to occur vs one (or a few) lab accidents. No contest probability wise.
"That idea holds there are billions of bats in China, and millions of encounters every week among bats and other wild animals and, in some cases, humans. The virus has many chances to jump. In its original form, it is inefficient at replicating in people. But it has millions of chances to get better even before it infects the first human. Bats go out foraging and have numerous encounters with other animals, such as pangolins, badgers, pigs and many others, and an opportunistic virus can infect these species..."
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That's all good stuff NR, BUT you seem truly annoyed that they are even trying to get to the bottom of it...you have so much BOD going in the china direction it's almost worst than your hate for trump
there are things that happened early that should have taken away this big BOD you have given them, BUT your anti-trump stances have blinded and colored everything else
what were those things again that happened? I will let you think back...it's important you come to it yourself...just 1 big thing...it should change your BOD - not necessarily change your mind, but take this annoying/offensive protective stance away...regardless of what they find out...if they get to the bottom of it.
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Actually the science points to a lab leak over a natural occurrence.
'But the most compelling reason to favor the lab leak hypothesis is firmly based in science. In particular, consider the genetic fingerprint of CoV-2, the novel coronavirus responsible for the disease Covid-19.'
Atticus Finch
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NR can't decide if it's zoonotic or zootonic, lol
Hey science guy
Zootonic is a bar mixer using the juice of endangered species
Either way, you're working way too hard shilling for the CCP
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he MOSTLY just wants to argue with people
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"Actually, Occam's razor would suggest the zootonic route, because it's the route that has led to most outbreaks in the past. And probabilistically, with a million or so chances to occur vs one (or a few) lab accidents. No contest probability wise."
Except for the part where WIV WAS experimenting with live bats.
And all of the 15,000 bat research files were removed from the Wuhan Lab in September of 2019 right before the Pandemic exploded on the world.
NR = Virus Apologist.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANRs4DojOek
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There are a rare few who live to play Devil's Advocate and couldn't make the decision to pee even if their pants were on fire.
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might be more believable if not weighing in on every single item on the wrong side...which he does...take it back...haven't seen him talk about the border shit show
baffles me that smart people in the news or politicians do it also
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I'm just trying to balance things out here because opinion has swung wildly from the zoonotic hypothesis to now the lab leak hypothesis. It was wrong then to espouse one side as it is wrong now IMO.
The data (as it exists) is consistent with zoonosis, but it's also consistent with lab leak.
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My opinion has nothing to do with China. LOL.
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@ ballsdeep
Come on man, China released it intentionally?
What communist regime has ever killed millions of people intentionally?
For anyone to 'fing believe that china would have to have had:
Closed domestic travel.
CCP would have t allow it's citizens to travel internationally.
destroy all evidence
oh, wait.......
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Yes:
"I’m realizing that...#LabLeak arguments have morphed into justifications to bully and intimidate prominent American scientists. The far right (but increasingly the mainstream GOP) are adopting antiscience as a major platform."
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There still is real pressure by some scientists to not give credibility to the lab leak hypothesis.
I wish what i just said wasn't true, but it is. I just experienced this pressure myself from someone I respect. Upsetting.
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Liberal Doctor on KABC 790 today, every Wednesday around noon btw, has changed her tune and not only advocates for lab leak theory but stated she believes the leak was INTENTIONAL. Think about that: Bioweapon was released on the US intentionally.
If true ... how many lives, how many families, how much economic damage? And the press through all this?
WAR.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhSy-6VqIww
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War against whom?
How?
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It's not clear if you mean China, the press, or Democrats or all 3.
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fun stuff
Washington Post columnist knocks Jon Stewart for pushing Wuhan lab-leak theory: Celebrities aren't 'experts'
'This provides an important lesson about celebrities: You shouldn’t get your political opinions from them
4 potentials
nature did it
lab accident with gain of function shit
lab - on purpose with gain of function shit
lab on purpose with an anti-trump helping hand/blessing
the last three are war worthy...last one is part of the book/movie
'
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More likely:
1. from nature
2. accidental lab lead of virus found from nature; experiments were designed to help with surveillance
4. accidental lab leak of edited virus; experiments were designed to help with surveillance
Less likely:
5. accidental lab leak of virus found from nature; experiments were designed to create biological weapons
6. accidental leak of edited virus; experiments were designed to create biological weapons
7. purposeful exposure of natural virus to outside world
8. purposeful exposure of edited virus to the outside world
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NR if the Dr's summation was true, there would be only one responsible party at this point until more evidence (or narrative engineering) comes out: China.
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I get that cultures are all different and shit
BUT, WTF is up with the wild animals markets?
Cages sitting on top of each other
Animals shitting & pissing
Even if it was a total accidental zoonotic event
It's still China's fault
Turns out that there's a bunch of these markets in and around Wuhan
The epicenter was Huanan market but it could've been any of them where it started
I don't care that they've been around 5,000 years
If you're killing tigers for penis and rhinos for horn and pangolins for whatever
Then............
FUCK YOU!
You need to die, miserably.........in pain
But, I could be wrong
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we still have that one big thing sitting out there...that should color this very differently...makes damages a real thing
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The first death from Covid was a Chinese man who frequented the Wuhan wet markets. Also just after China shut down all the wet markets. The virus is transferable from animals to humans. Other pandemic type situations were from animals to humans. There is evidence of a lab leak as well but still cannot rule out animals.
Informative blog.
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At the risk of repeating myself...
The exact source is secondary at this stage...
To me the mere fact the CCP allowed international travel after restricting travel to/from Wuhan shows gross negligence at the least bordering on willful intent create a worldwide Pandemic.
Where did it originate?... who cares... the virus was willfully released to the world stage.
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My opinion
CCP ordered the lab Shi Zhengli ran to engineer a virus. They created a vaccine for the engineered virus . It got out and is still making history. China never felt the virus impact because they had the vaccine ready.
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