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To clarify, the Palestinians voted Hamas into the majority in Gaza in Jan, 2006. Since then there have been no further elections and Hamas has remained the leading party.
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Then why did it take so long for Israel to respond. I took many hours before the military was deployed.
It is said, Israel can launch F16s in 6 minutes. So where were the apache choppers?
Israel could of intervened much sooner.
Punch holes gas the tunnels. Send in the tunnel rat's.
Benjamin Netanyahoo new Hamas weeks ahead of a strike. Just like 9/11 and Pearl Harbor, the heads of state new of potential attacks. But a reason to enter into war is always needed. But at what cost?
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Seymour you are a socially acceptable organism but this is way off course.
Intelligence organizations always know of potential attacks. That is what they do. Pearl Harbor and 9/11 were failures of imagination. We knew we had lost track of the Jap carrier fleet. We just never dreamed they would do something so bold. We knew Al Queda was recruiting world wide and had inordinate appeal to middle class Arabs who were invisible to screening. We just never dreamed they would do something so bold.
October 7th was not a failure of imagination so much as an affirmation of hubris. The Israeli state is ridiculously arrogant. Not Jews. Israel. They live by a code of racial superiority. And they learned a valuable lesson. If you dehumanize an entire group of people to maintain a siege mentality then you only dehumanize yourself.
What they do with that lesson is now up to them. They made the monster. It is now on them to make a life of dignity instead of carceral vengeance for the Palestinians.
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I don't have Muslim friends or know any Palestinians, but I have many Jewish friends and have dated women who are Jews in the past.
Originally, I thought that Israel deserved to retaliate harshly for what Hamas did on October 7. I still think that Hamas needs to be punished, but I now feel that Israel is a terrorist state that is purposefully committing a genocide or ethic cleansing of the Palestinians.
The IDF admitted that of the more than 15,000 Palestinians killed, between 1,000 to 2,000 were Hamas. That's bullshit. You don't blow up an elementary school because an active shooter has been reported to be there, yet the IDF will bomb a refugee camp filled with women and [pre-adults] because one or two Hamas leaders may be there?
A Jewish friend joked that Palestinians should just get out of Gaza and go to Egypt. Yeah, no shit that's what you want. To either kill Palestinians or drive them out of the country.
Jake Tapper of CNN grilled an Israeli official about the innocent civilians being killed in Gaza. Tapper, visibly disgusted, noted that nine members of a CNN-Palestinian producer's family were just killed in Gaza. They were not Hamas and they were not terrorists, they were just people wishing to live their lives.
Again, I'm not against Jews and I know how many of them must feel about Jews being attacked by Hamas, but what the Israeli government/IDF is doing is just wrong. The antisemitism that is becoming more prevalent is a direct result of these reported atrocities.
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@Hey1
I actually think there may be something to what Seymour is suggesting. For example, beyond the music festival, the Kibbutz that was attacked had no guards at their posts where they normally stand with automatic rifles. Add to that the six or seven hour delay in Israel's/IDFs response, and it really does suggest that Netanyahoo may have wanted the attack to happen and the hostages to be taken.
But why? There have been many demonstrations in Israel against Netanyahoo and his government's authoritarian tendencies. Demonstrations were already scheduled to be held the weekend after the October 7 attack, but were obviously cancelled. The entire Israeli government has now rallied behind Netanyahoo. Sure he's been criticized because the government allowed the attack to occur, but Netanyahoo has received many political benefits post Hamas' October 7 attack. It's a conspiracy theory that is grounded in fact.
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BINGO!
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Netanyahu was on his way to prison most likely due to corruption and other charges. This might buy him time as the War Commander but huge sections of the population are still against him including hostage families
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October 7th is just one of many milestones in a long and complex ongoing tragedy. I personally struggle to differentiate the moral high ground between the rape and deliberate targeting of Israelis, against the collective punishment of many more innocent Palestinians, or the ongoing targeted killing of West Bank Palestinians by Israeli settlers. All are despicable, evil, and unacceptable. Hopefully, the shock of 10/7 will have some positive long-term benefits as a macabre catalyst for a sustainable two-state solution. However, I doubt it.
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The gang rape, mutilation and execution of women by HAMAS justifies Israel’s efforts to eliminate that terrorist organization in my opinion. Wars are not kind and often there is a lot of collateral damage. Look at Ukraine for examples of that. Think for a moment how Putin or Xi Jinping would react to a terrorist attack that killed 1200 + of their citizens in a similar manner? Would that state continue to exist? I believe we would not be worried about 10k deaths. Israel is doing what it must do to continue to survive in that part of the world.
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Never mind Ukraine, China or Russia. How many Iraqi civilians died after 9/11 and they had no material involvment. Where do you draw the line? The elimination of every Palestinian in Gaza? Where does it end?
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To Islam it ends when Israel no longer exists
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As a jewish state.
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That part of the world has had issues since before Europe discovered America, and Inam not talking about Columbus.
We may not see a peaceful solution in our lifetime.
But the situation is much, much more complicated.
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lol i stopped giving a shit, venezuela about to invade guyana. at this point idgaf, history is based on forever conflicts
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OP,
I don't know why the link you posted would surprise anyone. If you actually read the book "Charley Wilson's War" instead of just watching the movie you would know that the Afghan warriors would kill some of their Russian prisoners by raping them to death. Apparently pretty much anything moving was fair game as long as the warrior was doing the penetration.
Perhaps the Hamas Palestinians are different but based upon the video you posted that sadly does not seem to be the case.
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Hmm, maybe starting a war with people who can not only kick your ass but withhold food, water and electricity that they SUPPLY you with because you never got your act together to take care of those things yourself, wasn't a very bright idea?
GT
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@GT 👍🏿 Regardless the Jews will prevail.
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Not just women but teens and young girls.
“I was called into a house, I was told there are few bodies over there. I saw in front of my eyes a woman, laying (down). She was naked and she had nails …,”
“She had nails and different objects in her female organs. Her body was brutalized in a way that we could not identify her,”
They are sub human, Gaza as a state should not exist.
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Hate to be a buzz-kill for the anti-Palestinians, but the Israeli propaganda machine has already been proven to have made up the prior 40 beheaded b*bies claim, so you’re going to believe everything you hear or read from a source that has already been proven to have made up atrocities as a cover for their genocide/ethnic cleansing?
Hamas has denied raping women during this conflict. I thought terrorist groups typically enjoy accepting credit what they do to terrorize the people that they’re targeting.
Does it make sense to sexually mutilate women so that the world sympathizes with your much stronger opponent that can annihilate you and the people who you’re fighting for?
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Given what I just wrote, I can also be wrong.
Some crazy members of Hamas could have angrily retaliated against Jewish women by committing atrocities, for which they must be punished. I’m just raising the possibility, which I feel is likely, that Israel has an incentive to paint the narrative in the ugliest way possible because it is being accused of genocide and ethnic cleansing. How else can you explain killing at least 13,000 innocent people?
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Listen. If you hate me but instead come and attack the innocents -- my family and friends, kill, maim and sexually assault the females of all ages, murder my grandparents, attack a music festival, take even more innocents as hostages to use as human shields, and then burn the family home to the ground, do you think I'm going to come looking for you?
Sure...
But in the process I am going to lay waste to your neighborhood, your hometown, your father's hometown, and his father's hometown before that. What happens to your mother would be a story for the ages...needless to say she would be unable to speak of what happened...ever. And I will keep doing that until I locate you and can put your head on a stick in the most violent way imaginable.
I'll then take that stick and plant it firmly in the town square so anyone who may have survived can know definitively whose fault all of this violence was.
And I would have ZERO remorse.
That's how the Israelis feel, and they have every right. Godspeed to them.
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It's over 17k dead civilians now with nearly half of them being children and another big portion being women and the elderly, and that's not even counting military aged civilian men. The number of children killed in just 2 months is already more than double the number of children killed since 2019 in all conflicts worldwide COMBINED.
If you are unaware of what's going in the West Bank, where Hamas play no role, here is just a tiny and relatively tame glimpse into the daily life of Palestinians:
https://youtu.be/piIgkqPmI-w?si=oSWc1023Ah6OH9H8
It is completely illegal in international law to build settlements in occupied territory, like the West Bank, and these types of confrontations far too frequently end in a dead Palestinian at the hands of an Israeli settler terrorist while the IDF looks on approvingly.
This video from 6 years ago shows the level of vile hatred Israelis are brainwashed into believing. You can't have this level of hatred towards a people you rarely interact without being heavily groomed into it.
https://youtu.be/lFoxL3sOAio?si=4_b1WKFt5MLjS7Du
After the end of South African apartheid Nelson Mandela said, in 1997, "We know too well that our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians."
You can't become an educated person on this conflict and come away as a supporter of the government of Israel, it's just not possible if you have a conscience and any sort of moral compass.
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So genocide, ethic cleansing, and blatant war crimes based on allegations that could be made up as cover to finally drive out the Palestinians from their land that’s you’ve been continually encroaching with your illegal settlements. 13,000 innocent people dead? No problem!
You’re a fucking clown, yellowB2, and you know it.
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what is really interesting is the way democrats are seriously split over this.
the old school dem supports the Israelis and the progs support Palestinians
its actually splitting the party...
and Bidens full support to Israel - shames many of them.
how will that play out next years elections
BTW there is so much misinformation on both sides, really need to do your own fact checking..
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People need to educate themselves better, it’s sad some of you are very brainwashed
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Visit the news media sites of other countries and see how they portray the war and it’s a VERY different picture.
Hell, even Australian and Canadian news is not afraid of showing how vile the Israeli response has become. Israel does not care that their reciprocity has been far and above what Hamas has inflicted on them.
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Hamas uses the Palestinian citizenry as human shields, and then glorifies their deaths. Hamas builds their HQs under hospitals. They could care less about the Palestinians.
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bwana, good job spouting off Israeli talking points that western media regurgitates without questioning the validity of the statement because the US is completely cucked to Israel.
It's funny that you don't accuse Israel of using its civilians as human shields when in regular practice they embed military facilities in their own civilian buildings. Israeli military HQ are in Tel Aviv surrounded by civilian buildings and even a hospital in the vicinity.
Israel has an undeclared military nuclear facility in Dimona in the vicinity of a rural community.
So why the double standard here? Again, you've been conditioned by the mainstream media in America over decades to believe what you are regurgitating.
The fact of the matter is that Israel routinely targets civilians as part of it's ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign. Learn the history. Read what the founders of Zionism and its adherents have openly stated and you'll understand that this was always about colonization, taking the land from the existing inhabitants whose existence they acknowledged but wished to erase. They knew to fully achieve their goal they would need to do a violent ethnic cleansing. They also knew that to get away with it would require immensely competent PR. I can tell it's working when people uncritically repeat their talking points.
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You do know that the goal of Hamas is to eliminate all Jews "From the river to the sea".
You should try and use "regurgitate" more often.
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Again, you're showing off how great Israel's investment in PR has been by REGURGITATING another one of their talking points. (You like that word don't you? You dirty little cuck.)
Of course I know what their charter said and I guarantee I know a shit ton more about this colonial conflict and the resistance to it than you're proving to know, but that phrase existed long before Hamas did and dates back to 1960's. It was used as a call for Palestinian liberation from Israeli oppression, not for genocide. And while I don't put much stock to it, Hamas revised its charter in 2017 to remove the call for the destruction of Israel.
Even if you think everyone who voted for Hamas deserves to be killed in cold blood - never mind the fact that Israel was doing that before Hamas held power - you fail to take into account that half the population of Gaza was not even born when Hamas came to power and most weren't of age to vote. Do those children born into this conflict deserve to die?
Hamas was given power in part by Israel and they've even secretly given Hamas cash to carry out their operations because those in power believed Hamas would be easier to control than Fatah and this would allow them to continue annexing Palestinian territory.
While the October 7th attack may have caught Israel off guard due to their own hubris, Israel's internal security was warning several months prior that their continued brutal violence was going to harm them and they were concerned about an attack if they didn't slow the violence. What did Netenyahu do? He called them woke and said they were going soft then proceeded to move security forces away from the Gaza border wall to help the settler terrorist in the occupied West Bank ramp up the violence against the civilians there where, again, Hamas has no presence.
Maybe address one of my points next time instead of repeating CNN or Fox.
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Obviously, you are regurgitating propaganda from whatever anti-semtic Reddit group you follow. The same site that over-used the term regurgitated, and put it in your mind. If you can show me proof of all of your claims, I can address your points.
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all sides of this conflict collectively blame Netenyahu
its good to have someone to blame - a scapegoat.
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They need to have open borders.
It works great here.
Nothing will go wrong.
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I was wondering where all the foreign affairs experts had gathered
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Oh another good one, equating opposition to a genocidal Israeli government is being antisemitic, because in your mind Israel is committing genocide on behalf of Jews around the world. That sounds a bit antisemitic to me that you would equate an ideology that makes Jews less safe around the world with all Jews. You really are hitting all their talking points like a good little hog.
It's funny that the biggest allies of Israel are associating with literal Nazis since they share a similar goal, to convince Jews around the world to leave their current country and go to Israel.
Even though I know you are asking in bad faith for sources and that you'll dismiss them because they aren't all Fox News or CNN, here are sources:
Human shields: https://www.trtworld.com/magazine/this-is-how-israel-uses-its-own-people-as-human-shields-47231
Hamas updated charter: https://digitalprojects.palestine-studies.org/jps/fulltext/214551
Ignored security warnings: https://www.politico.eu/article/israel-border-troops-women-hamas-warnings-war-october-7-benjamin-netanyahu/
Israel funding Hamas: https://www.analystnews.org/posts/how-israel-helped-prop-up-hamas-for-decades
State of the Palestinian Authority in the occupied West Bank: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/11/what-is-the-palestinian-authority-and-how-is-it-viewed-by-palestinians
No, not reddit. Maybe try reading some books by scholars on the matter. A good start would be Jewish-Israeli scholar Norman Finkelstein's "Gaza: An Inquest into its Martyrdom".
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Both sides play hella dirty. I heard Israel has had a blockage on Gaza for years, not allowing free trade and shipping for Palestinians. Thats pretty fucked up. Just imagine if Russia or China did something like that with California. Oh wait I already know what would happen......
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Thanks for putting words in my mouth, I also love the desperate use of weak insults (cuck, hog) In prior posts, they really help your case.
I have said in prior threads that it was surprising that Mossad didn't know that Hamas was planning the attack.
The sites you provided are no less dubious than the tired, old "mainstream media" firms you claim I "regurgitate" from. Mostly opinion pieces.
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“Hmm, maybe starting a war with people who can not only kick your ass but withhold food, water and electricity that they SUPPLY you with because you never got your act together to take care of those things yourself, wasn't a very bright idea?”
I agree and here is a novel idea. How about spending resources from Iran on infrastructure and taking care of your citizens instead of poking the bear?
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War is a political act, military action is meant to make the enemy surrender.
Israel faced a multipronged combined arms assault that took out command and control.
The assault needed a measured response.
Many of the Hamas fighters and civilians that murdered, raped, kidnapped were Palestinians who live in Gaza.
Gaza is not a country. Israel provided the water and electricity. The Kibbutz were comprised of the liberals trying to teach and charity workers all trying to help Palestinians...they included Muslims who lived with these families for 25 years...were guards and had eaten dinners together....then LED HAMAS TO THE JEWS TO RAPE, MURDER, KIDNAP WOMEN AND CHILDREN.....PEOPLE THEY KNEW!
7 years ago Isis genocide the Yazidi and sold all the women into sex slavery. They are not Jewish or Christian...they were GENOCIDED BY THIS AE GROUP OF RADICAL ISLAMISTS
Many of the Israeli and Yazidi girls are now sold into sex slavery in Qatar where the Hamas Billionaires live
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TLDR; because I love humanity, I would kill them all myself.
One of the sex slaves story
https://youtu.be/XDniN3k5aQ8?si=C4iJtKm2ZRjZNAjw
Palestinian children being taught to be Martyrs
https://youtu.be/7JgeKpDoxHs?si=6zUTVRyPmOawXhiO
Kindergarten graduation ceremony from Gaza
https://youtu.be/vRuuDI0KCR8?si=GVZAOCIKHKUZn1RU
Palestinians teach kids to stab Jews, #So_what
https://youtu.be/sBtEDMsl_SM?si=8yVRU9eyvv1vet-8
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So hold onto your humanity at all costs
HAMAS MOTO
We love death more than they love life
..love life more
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I may not always agree with our Liberal OP Lngbdsr ...
But this is not a matter of Liberal vs Conservative ...
This is a matter of WAR, and war is ugly and there is always collateral damage that is very unfortunate and claims the lives of too many innocent people.
Israel is forced to be brutal and unrelenting, as if they show a hint of weakness it will invite Iran and any other enemies of Israel to attack Israel over and over again...
I hate to say this cause I like any normal human being have compassion for my fellow Man and Woman and especially the young, but in a lot of other parts of the world, compassion is looked upon as a weakness ?
Unfortunately, the wars for Jerusalem have been going on since around 2,000 BC , so for over 4,023 and soon to be 4,024 years ...
We can only pray for peace and that the leadership of Israel and its enemies can somehow come up with a two-state peaceful solution of co-existence...
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Since this is war, why doesn’t Israel just blow up Gaza completely and kill all 2.2 million Palestinians? Aren’t they all animals anyway? Isn’t that the term used by Israeli officials?
What have they learned from the holocaust? The ones with the nicer, shiner guns get to kill whomever they want? Where is the fucking compassion for innocent civilians?
Israel has killed 200 Palestinian ch*ldren for every Jewish ch*ld Hamas killed on October 7.
Again, I don’t have an affinity for either side, but I do have a lot of Jews as friends. There are many Jews who are disgusted by what Israel/IDF is doing now.
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I agree @ MA1
But compassion in war is non-existent ... Especially guerilla warfare and having to go building by building with your enemy not wearing a uniform and hiding amongst innocent civilians and taking shots at you. It sucks, it's unfair, it's horrible in every way , shape or form ...
We all know when China or Russia starts sending bombs our way --- to our shores, our heartland --- China nor Russia will give two fucks about collateral damage... It's just the way war is unfortunately...
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Quote of the decade..."because I love humanity, I would kill them all myself." You need to lay off the crack.
MA1 is one of the few people in here who sounds like a human being here and not a psychotic murdered holy fuck.
The IDF is NOT a moral army and everything you all are accusing Hamas of can be said of the IDF as well because, like many of you already stated, war is hell.
Here's a former US State Department official on CNN discussing the rape of a 13-year old Palestinian boy in an Israeli prison. When the US brought it to the IDF's attention, THE NEXT DAY the IDF responded by declaring the institution that reported the rape a "terrorist" institution and removed all of their computers. Now why would the IDF do that?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zrb_cb6-rHI
Hey all of you saying rape is evil, do you have the same hatred of the IDF yet? This shit gets covered up by Israel.
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^ Bruh, Nobody likes war ...
Show me one compassionate Army, and I'll show you an Army that will forever regret ever being compassionate. Look at Russia in Ukraine, and the Ukaranians were considered the Russians Brothers at one point...
Bombs know no boundaries of collateral damage. If unfortunately the cowards of Hamas have hidden amongst the great civilian Palestinians , it just becomes a sad reality of war.
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I can see the orders coming down from the Pentagon now :
Okay Soldiers, here's a knife for war, we're only going to kill our proven enemies...
Our proven enemies will have AK-47's, Grenades, Rocket Launchers, but you just use your knives and be compassionate !
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EdmondDantes, I understand what you're saying, but the solution here isn't more war. It's giving Palestinians a seat at the table to and an honest shot determine their own future, and they've tried this path through peaceful methods.
The first Intifada from 1987 to 1993 was an unarmed uprising with large scale protests and the occasional kids throwing rocks. The protests were to gain independence and self-determination instead of the military and oppressive rule by the state of Israel as their living conditions deteriorated.
The IDF was ordered to respond to these protests with "force, might, and beatings", per Defense minister Yitzhak Rabin who earned the nickname "the bone breaker" as the IDF broke the arms, legs, and cracked the skulls of unarmed protesters, many of them children. As footage and images of the brutality these unarmed civilians were being subjected to began to circulate around the world, Israel's image as a tiny David up against Goliath was severely tarnished, with the leader of the Mossad (the Israeli security apparatus) even stating "The Intifada caused us a lot more political harm, damage to our image, than everything that the PLO had succeeded in doing throughout it's existence."
This earned Palestinians a place at the bargaining table in the US which later culminated in the Oslo Accords, but the deck was stacked against the Palestinians for too many reasons to explain here and they failed to win the self-determination they desired and put an end to all of this violence.
They've tried with violent resistance, they've tried with peaceful resistance, what the fuck are they supposed to do when Israel's only goal is to exterminate them?
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It all just sucks, and honestly, I have no idea how to resolve the matters in the Middle East.
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